“Will Work For Fame”

“Will Work For Fame”

Graffiti has come a long way in the past 30 years. Like Rap’s early struggle to be accepted as a legitimate form of music, In a similar way, modern Graffiti has gone through so much to be considered a credible art form. Graffiti art has made it’s way into museums, college text books, and has had a strong influence in marketing and fashion. But with all that there is still a disrespect that goes on when working professionally as an artist who specializes in Graffiti.

As a Graffiti writer, It seems that companies like to lowball you when it comes to hiring you for art based projects. I feel that you are discriminated against and often discounted because your medium of choice is spray paint, or that you work is tied in to what you do on the street (for free). Companies want that gutter look and think that they can get it for next to nothing. They often assume that Graffiti artists don’t have their shit together and can be taken advantage of.

What’s even more shocking is after all of the professional work I have done, I still get approached to provide work for projects, and told that there is no budget to pay for the art work. I can’t help but assume that they think because I am a graffiti writer, I would want to work for the credit or for “fame”. What a fucking insult! Why would I work hard on something or lend credibility to a project, just so someone else can make a profit off of it?

I feel that the days of cheating Graffiti artists are over. Fuck offering $500 bucks to a writer on something that you would usually offer $15,000 to an artist with a different specialization. I must say that graffiti artists are partially to blame. From desperation and a lack of business sense comes the continued abuse and cheapening of this type of art.

Get your shit together-


31 thoughts on ““Will Work For Fame”

  1. I think the same thing can also be said for young designers i.e graphic and web design. people like to think that because you are a student or just starting out, you should be thanking them for getting you to design their business cards/logos/website etc. THEN dont accept any of your advice on best practice, it shits me!

  2. Yo Rime!

    I’m feeling ya’ on this one bro. Try living here in NZ where we (Artists, creative directors, designers, promoters etc) want to feel a part of the world out there, do some projects on par with what’s going on but literally have marketing budgets drip fed from Australia or else where and more or less an expectation to make magic happen for nothing but love and ambition.

    While I often feel angry too when after so many years of painting I’m still working for a pittance, scratching together rent and food money and working so hard to have some semblance of a successful ‘career’, I realise that ultimately the blame lies with us, the writers.

    We know soulless corporate blood suckers are wealthy for a reason because they know how to save a buck where they can and ‘try it on’ without any prompting. We know people in general don’t understand what we do and those that try too hard to seem like they do come off corny in our eyes. We know advertising people need to be creative vicariously through others to make themselves seem like they have half a clue. We know that there is a rejection of the validity of writing as art by those that teach, deal, curate and even creat within the ‘art world’.

    In knowing all the above, we propagate a lot of the ignorance about writing ourselves. For starters, yes financial desperation may play a part, alongside the basic desire for recognition and gratification may be major motivators. Also a lot of the denial of being ‘artists’ ourselves may be a reactionary thing from years of dealing with the stigma around what we do. BUT, until writers en mass take the time to understand art and stop treating writing like a middle class extreme sport or recreational activity then how can we expect any respect? I mean, the vast majority of people in the graffiti scene don’t even PAINT. They put paint on the wall, train or whatever but unless you understand how to create from a place of integrity in the first place, that statement might not even make sense! A lot of people go through the motions, a lot of people are sign writers or painting graphics on a surface but in general the truth of intent or substance is missing, the understanding of context is missing and the power of expression is missing. Sure, anyone can become technically proficient with time but it’s the bigger picture that is missing amongst our peers and that is ultimately the most detrimental thing in my eyes. Couple that with the things listed above and lack of good money and time management skills and you have a recipe for disaster. All in all I just think it’s time for graffiti to grow up.

    To be honest I think another major problem is lack of good support for writers. I’m not talking agents either, maybe more like managers or even maybe ‘producers’ is a better word. People that understand the artists intrinsically, know how to hear out an idea from either an artist or client, bring the right people together, find the funding, contract things tightly and handle logistics of projects, events or shows. There’s a nice niche for someone to carve…

  3. We need a “Pricing Guide”, same as all other guilds and crafts have, to be updated anually. Furthermore, when you catch a writer in your area doing commercial work for a six-pack of tall boys and a turkey sandwich, you should put them under pressure. When a contractor hires “scab” labor at a construction site, the union is right there, blocking entry to the site in the morning, making dudes feel real uncomfortable. We need to be more like that, let dudes who “hire” some schmoe to paint for nothing BUT some paint know that their sign or mural can get crossed out.

  4. Pingback: work for fame | StgounderCrew

  5. The problem is that most writers CAN be had for cheap, due to lack of business acumen or low self-esteem or most likely just the inbuilt idea that there is something “authentic” and “artistic” about rejecting commerce.

    In doing so they undermine everyone else in the movement and the overall perception of it, and not just in terms of money. As a child, my father taught me, “Never do a job for free because they won’t respect you for it”. We live in the middle of capitalism and it is a sad truism that many people assign value to things by their price tag. So putting a good price on your work is NOT selling out. It’s saying to those people – this is of worth. It’s challenging them to relate the innate qualities of it to the price tag.

    This problem is not at all unique to graffiti writers and can be found in any creative pursuit wherein lies the conflict between love and money.

    However, it is entirely possible to reconcile the two. For me, “selling out” means your soul dying slowly in a 9-5 job knowing you should really be making free art. It means giving the world authenticity and soul and not getting enough back in return. It means being weak in interacting with the outside world and allowing it to force dilution and cliche on your art.

    Picasso said, “I want to live like a poor man with money”. Perfectly put.

    So how to solve this problem? As a manifesto, graffiti has been both hugely successful and a huge failure. It was never meant to be a lifelong pursuit, more a brief burst of teen rebellion and creativity. Yet here we stand, yourself Joe, myself and many others around the world, as adults sustaining adult life grown from that early spark and striving to retain the essence of it.

    Setting the price high, keeping a high standard for our work, retaining artistic integrity and making a success out of great heartfelt genuine art is what we can do to show the youth the way forward.

    The only other alternative is to let fakes move in and proliferate crap art and bleed resources away from the real art.

  6. Thanks for the replies, Well said Askew & Shok!

    As far as a “pricing guide” goes, that would be quite helpful. I often find myself pulling numbers out of my ass or basing it on my last related gig. I do ask others every so often what certain projects are worth but have not developed any set rates.

    As far as artist management goes. In my writing above, I edited out the part about the negative side of being represented, on specific projects, and the frustration with dealing with a middle man. I felt that it was too harsh and I should shut the fuck up.

    If fair, artist management benefits the artist in many ways such as covering all factors a job may involve, adjusted rates, and allows the artist to focus more on the creative side of a job.

    But as we all may have experienced, there are snakes out there that buffer between a company and yourself. I have seen some agencies land a painting job for several thousand dollars, then turn around and attempt to hire the talent for a few hundred bucks. What is also unfair is when management takes half (or more) on a project just for being there at the right time, and making a few back and forth phone calls.

    As an artist i feel it is best to start off learning the business independently. Eventually a good management opportunity could come along, but if you can do it yourself, handing over that end is not a priority.

  7. Great topic! And one that needs to be shared globaly.

    After reading u’r piece, and Askew’s & shok’s response I see that we understand where the problem lies,,, us, the “graffiti writers”. We need to understand that we are responsible for the way we are perseived and/or valued.

    Personally, I believe that although we’re not there yet, we are moving in the right direction. It was not long ago that we fell in the shadow of Tag Banging, which the media did an extraordinary job in documenting and educating the public of the ignorance and aggresion that cultivates among certain people so called grafitti writers that so proudly displayed it on camera. To this day there are a large portion of non graff heads that don’t know, that there are different types of graff practitioners. Which is why we at times get looked at as cheap, ignorant and/or worthless.

    On the flip side, graff with the help of a handful of proactive visionaries have broken a lot of ground and your movement and organization have been on the forefront of that. The global movement, strong structure and profound influence MSK, AWR, TSL, and the Knowngallery have shown through the years is a true testament of the strength and potential graff has to offer. And there in it lies the solution. Having the broad audience that you and your organisation have, I suggest u guys share this topic globaly through all your facets and encourage ur audience to educate themselves and prepare themselves accordingly to play the game correctly so we can all come-up on those who try to come-up on us.

    The more we speak on the subject and share it with others, the more we can all be on the same page and make our movement tighter. This way anyone interest in having graff done will know that it will cost them and the more we encourage other writers in the game to value their skill and not give away their work the more it will limit the opportunity for those interested in having graff done – done for free from someone else.

    In conclusion, just as in your parity with rap, graff will have writers who will be well recognised and well compinsated do to how well they play the game, and will also have talented writers who by lack of ambition preperation and little to no knowledge of business will give away the game. I for one stand my grown and give nothing away… Mi Arte Kontrola – Kreating 4 Profit


  8. I quote prices that I feel is fair for me and the client . Non Negotiable !

    Depending on what is contracted – i will provide the hourly rate of $45.00 an hour .

  9. Great dialog.

    Trust me, the design community, illustrators, photographers, and everyone else working as an independent creative is living thru this. Especially in 2009.

    I work in various disciplines. Design, Illustration, Logos, Fashion, Web, and the occasional commissioned Mural. It is a bit different depending on project and scope, But… My advice for anyone working commercially is the same…

    Quote with conviction.
    (You wouldn’t trust a car mechanic that flinched, would you?)

    Be prepared to not get jobs because you quoted with conviction.
    (But the ones you do get will make up for it. Believe me.)

    When Quoting. Be Pro.
    Prepare a document outlining project, scope, direction, timeline, fees, alternates (low, mid, high), reference images of your past projects, etc.
    (Professionalism is the key to being Professional.)

    Figure a good way to quote and build your vocabulary & communication skills about why/how/what. Perhaps you charge per square foot and paint cost is included (ie. a 30×10 wall at $15 sq. foot = $4500). Or a day rate (Hourly is too similar to house painters and mechanics in my opinion. We’re professional artists, remember?)

    The key is to walk in to the meeting, or get on the phoner, or email with confidence. These people don’t order the burger when they go out. Ya dig? Let them know you mean business. That is their language.

    It’s like pulling the hottest girl in the club.
    Confidence & Communication Khed!

    Good Luck!


    *Been a huge fan for years Joe. Keep shining dude!

  10. …I didn’t start writing to go to Paris, I didn’t start writing to do canvases. I started writing to bomb… (Skeme/Style Wars)

  11. I completely feel the whole discussion as i’m having that problem locally. Last year , city council paid 50 000 euros some ‘artist’ to do a big mural on the highway (?) , in a place that had huge silver pieces. One year later , the result is the bullcrap got covered by chromes. And the city is looking for ‘graff writers’ to paint 4 walls beside the Train station for 4000 euros. Both jobs are equivalent size-wise. but a writer gets 10 times less….
    For years Community Centers have hired writers to give some lessons to inner city kids (here in france) or create a ‘neighborhood mural’ (i remember finding it funny that the city was painting a mural in my project and hired a writer that needed to be shipped in from another part of the country), the state even pays for graff lessons to minors in jail. Jon One is in galleries , on french news channels , the so-called ‘art world’ seems to be opening up to writers or ex-writers , yet the general public seems to think i should be happy to just ‘be allowed to paint’ … but people… the whole point of the artform is that WE chose where we paint… so ‘i should be happy to paint’ but i dont need your permission…
    I was at a tattoo parlour several times , and i figured the artist there charges more or less 100 euros an hour. The more complex , the longer to do , etc… i like that system. after all , factory work is paid by the hour , why shouldnt i? ( or by the square meter or whatever) but i definitely believe writing is not valued as an artform , and the economic difficulties of the writers aropund me means i cant blame them for doing a badly paid job : they gotta eat.
    It reminds me of clothes brands that start off : you gotta have high prices just for people to take you seriously…
    i never bothered to check it out , but theres a UK website called something like ‘hire-a-graffiti-writer’ that seems to be in that niche Askew mentioned.

  12. I have hit this wall so many times.

    I have made a stand on a few occasions, said I’m not doing something and been called a prima-donna or other things by other writers…… when I’ve said, no to things because I thought that we as writers were getting mugged off.

    You always get the ‘Oh well. When we get this, that and the other next time, you won’t get offered it’…. and the sensible answer of ‘why will they offer you more next time, when you’ve already done it for this much this time?’ gets a blank look….. Writers just don’t understand the business-man’s mentality.

    This,… ‘I do it for the love of it’, or ‘Well I’d only be out painting somewhere else anyway’ doesn’t wash with me. Like you said, we will never be treated with respect as artists until we make a stand…. similar to the one we made in respect of the New York job a few years ago with Adidas…..

    I don’t choose to make my career as a writer. I do graphics for my day to day dollars (or pounds)…. but I respect the ones out there that are trying to make a living out there too much to cheapen the deal for them.

    If only a few more felt the same. I am now off to read the other responses of to see if maybe there are a few more like-minded out there…..

  13. Its about time somebody brought this up.I have attempted in the past to contact active writters about this and got little feedback.But OG ABEL wasnt too cool get back at me.But I was still left trying to get a price guide to fall back on.Wether your still bombing,paying dues,or doing this for a living none of us should get cheated out of what we are worth.

    I really think that our global community needs a professional website layed out as a basic foundation,depending on skill and creditbility Im sure it would be extra.

    As it is the responsibility for older heads to school the younger or new comers to the graff game on the do’s and dont’s,history,respect in our own stomping grounds.It should also be the responsibility of the crews and writters making a living off of this who have already paved the way,to also pave the way of what should be in our pockets..

    Well said SHOK 1…
    “Setting the price high, keeping a high standard for our work, retaining artistic integrity and making a success out of great heartfelt genuine art is what we can do to show the youth the way forward.”

  14. Fascinating, I was somehow under the impression that the global ‘big dogs’ were on the gravy train. I am both disappointed and ironically reassured to read that the situation is the same for all of us.

    My experience is that as a writer who works with kids and teenagers in schools and youth centres to pay the bills, that it is far easier to charge what I believe to be a decent rate for my work (£200 a day plus materials and travel) in this context than when doing commissioned work for businesses; who all too often try to argue that ‘it’ll be great for your portfolio/CV’ or that a job is ‘great exposure’. I mean, how much fucking exposure do we need before becoming commercially viable??

    I feel the other unfortunate side-effect of this situation is that too many writers seem to think the solution is to follow the gallery route. Now I have nothing against seeing graff-styles on canvas/board, etc, but to my mind this choice of career path all too often fragments and dilutes the original ethos and intent to the point of superficial commodification. In other words, if you spend all your time in the studio working on pieces for your next show, you’re not left with much time to make your mark on the drab grey concrete stretches that deserve everything they get; instead ending up being judged and funded (or not) by folks who have money to buy, but little in the way of taste and/or understanding of our art. Ultimately this leads to us becoming commercial artists in the truest sense, and I’m not at all comfortable with that when I see how many fellow writers allow the situation to dictate the content of their work. Some do it right, all too many don’t. We’re not products, so don’t become one! And don’t break up the crew just to pay your fucking mortgage. What’s more important when all’s said and done? Friends, surely?
    So for me, for now the answer is education, since it pays my bills, allows me to instill the truth of the movement in the next generation…and means I haven’t bought paint for the last seven years. Paper racking, right?

    On a local level I am in the process of setting up a website that is a ‘dating agency’ for walls and writers. Where I live, in Bristol, England, there is an ever-increasing acceptance and understanding of graffiti, with a growing number of businesses becoming willing to pay for their buildings to be beautified. Their problem is how to contact writers? It’s not that obvious if you don’t know any, it seems, and as we all know for very good reasons most remain under the radar, or are perceived to be (which is almost more relevant in this situation). SO our idea is to host a site where businesses can browse galleries of writers’ work and match them to their criteria, then pay an agreed commercial rate for the work. Initial experiments have been promising, and partnering up with the local ‘graffiti blog’ which has a very high rate of traffic and, seems to be the way to go. Let them come to us is the philosophy, and with rates put down in black and white it saves any awkward negotiating.

    Ultimately, though, I think one of the biggest problems writers need to get over is being so fucking ADDICTED to painting that they will paint for food, beer, weed, or even the pat on the back that a decent high-profile spot provides. Go for a walk, read a book, draw a cartoon strip, just do something other than pining so hard after your next wall that you make it impossible for the rest of us to make a living out of this! Over-saturation of anything lowers standards and breeds complacency.

  15. bestseller Says:

    October 2, 2009 at 9:20 am | Reply
    …I didn’t start writing to go to Paris, I didn’t start writing to do canvases. I started writing to bomb… (Skeme/Style Wars)

  16. Its very relieving to see that other writers have the same ideals and standards as me. Theres been a few moments in my life where I thought I may be crazy persuing this life as a career. But hard work perservearance and dedication pay off. I’ve lost jobs locally to toys that under quote me. I did a job for a high end retailor, and used there whole art budget for that season. If the money is there. Dont be afraid to ask for it. If you over quote a job the client will usually open up and tell you what they can afford. There budget has since been reduce once they found “graff artists” that would do the job for a couple g’s..My first reaction was anger. I put a lot of hard work into setting a standard, and putting value into what we do. I notice a lot of young writers, doing jobs I did last year for LESS money. The key is to keep it moving. on to the next.
    Some employers arent even worth the effort. And you cant let yourself feel pressured into saying yes, or jump at the first number they give you. If you conduct yourself proffesionaly and build a good working relationship it will pay off. Its about time, people take themselves seriously. An think about what graffiti means to them. Half the writers I know are still in denial that what they do is art..And they they call me and ask if they can get on a wall im doing??
    Props to Joe for adressing this issue.. To many people take from the game and never give back.

  17. I really hate treating my art like a trade, as in if I do it commercially, having a rate like an hourly or per square meter value on my work. It makes me feel like I speaking about what I do in terms of paint on a section of wall, not in terms of the value of my creativity, unique identity as an artist or what I lend to a project in credibility etc. When I meet a person that is a genuine fan of what I do, understands and respects it, if I have time, I’m happy to do then something for pretty much nothing. If the vibe is right I’m happy to do that. If a corporate comes knocking and wants to pay me big bucks, these days I’m just as happy to say no. At the end of the day, if the vibe isn’t right then don’t do it, regardless of money. Having what you do respected has nothing to do with money.

    It is hard to support yourself with this unless you are open to being something between a muralist or signwriter, but neither of those things sit well with me. I’m an artist and trying to be the best one I can be, which means having self respect and dignity about what I do, what I associate myself with and building my legacy for the long term. That’s not saying I don’t or haven’t done commercial work for people, because I’ve done heaps. I’ve just learned over time to be more clear about my boundaries. I’m happy to work with people if it’s going to be a fun project, something challenging and we can build relationships based on respect. There’s that word again… Haha

    At the Skeme quotes above.. Yeah that’s cool and all, each to their own, but I always came up wanting both. To bomb AND have my art admired in galleries in Paris or wherever. I think it’s funny people base their entire MO on a quote made by a 16 year old over 25 years ago. Like I said though, if that’s what feels the most honest to you then cool.

  18. If getting no-balled is the same as getting low-balled then im with you…

    Its hard to argue for writers when on the whole it’s a fairly dysfunctional group of fools.
    Limiting it to writers who are interested in the commercial side can instantly cut down useless, ‘oh I just bomb shit’ comments and cut to the core.

    There are 101 tiers of writers these days and on all different skill levels. Hiring a writer can be a crapshoot. Graffiti is such a ‘go for yours’ sport there are NO standards, or the very least somehow no has decided to approach it with common sense and evaluate it by applying a combination of design and fine art principles. But Graffiti is such a powerful (powerfully miss-guided) word that when its brought up it overshadows the fact the art might be happening. So there needs to be a distinction between practices and disciplines and skill levels regarding Style-Writing. Style writing is skilled labor, as applied to a money related project, when practiced by a professional. It combines similar skills as many other professions; mixing technical know-how, knowledge of materials, ability to creatively conceptualize in a wide range of ways. The big issue is making the distinction between, Joe the professional because of X,Y, Z reason and jimmy the armature jackass, who tries to make the same X,Y,Z claims as Joe.

    Well fuck it ill just go ahead and say it…. Laugh all you want.
    There should be a Commercial Style-Writers Guild; mimicking the age-old guild model. I’m not talking about crews but something more a-political and business minded. If a group of writers (desired writers- ala talented more then historical) were to form a business alliance to help build a set of standards by which fools adhere to the business model and respect for the skilled hand-craft of aerosol painting would benefit.

    Just an idea, which there are a million reason why it wont work, but the idea as far as a means to garner respect and credibility for a craft isn’t bad. I wont bore you more with it… happening or not im ready to build on it.

    I also agree and disagree with askews ‘vibe is right’ theory, I think in the perfect world that’s def the way to go. Unfortunately in a world of over aggressive go getters its hard to be that passive and still survive, well at least for the vast majority. To me the vibe is right is more of a lifestyle the a work style, although im a 9-5 asshole so it might be different. I know from 9-5 mon-fri, im RoboHev, office worker; the vibe doesn’t play into it, its an office, we know the vibe and it aint right so its overlooked. After work hev 0.1 is back and ready to live free, and if your vibe aint right then we aint ever gonna be tight. However if the money is right I’ll overlook the vibe and feed my fam [I think, so far my door is silent, opportunity might have gotten jacked on his way to my house, im trying to move to better hood]

  19. It’s funny to hear everyone crying but when the time comes they give up their asses for peanuts. Learn to turn shit down. Point blank….If everyone stuck to this these companies would have no choice but to pay. Been in this shit for years before the money and every year more and more so called graf artists who don’t even give a fuck about this artform underbid and fuck it up for the rest of the ones who really live this day in day out. Money or no money Peace Tats Cru…

  20. Nice topic of discussion, i think all the issues raised are completely valid and true, and i believe it is the duty of graffiti writers to have a strong business mind and not to undermine or cheapen the ‘commerical value’ of graffiti, HOWEVER in reality i think that alot of writers that if hand on heart couldnt make ends meet one month and HAD to accept work for less than they might normally expect or think is an accurate reflection of their skills, i think that many of us have been in this situation, even with negotiating, and having a good business sense, the other option being forgetting graffiti as a job entirely and working the 9-5 route, which many people see as a real last ditch, or even with the current levels of unemployment, a necessity to fall back on graffiti as their only source of income,
    dont get me wrong, all the points raised are correct and bear truth, however in the real world with bills to be paid each month, i dont think you will ever be able to completely cut out the stream of people willing to be competative in order to get the job over the next guy, it happens in all of business, its bullshit but unless your dealing with a really cool culture savvy company the cheapest price usually wins,not just in the graffiti game, doing graffiti comercially changes it from someone picking a canvas from a wall and moves it in a employers eyes towards a skilled labour, similar to getting a bar fitted out, a new paintjob on their bus, or work done in their house, it may be wrong but THEIR perception is this, and ofetn cheaper prices wins out, everyones trying to save money to keep themselves in pocket and their budgets low.

    unfortunately no matter how much everyone stands up together and tries to push our art forwards i think it will be a hard task to prevent or persuade certain artists to go hungry in order to wait out for a big fairly priced job, i think the world often doesnt work like this. put in a hard situation most people pick survival over hunger,

    maybe an angle to persue is to aim to educate the public, companies and consumers to the difference between good graffiti and middle of the road work, at the moment companies are willing to pay less because even shitty graffiti is often percieved the same by the everyday person, they simply dont get it,
    theres a few points there, disagree with them if you will but its what iv found from my experience, i think its not always so black and white as hold out for more and more will come, i think there are many more issues to tackle in order to get the extra $$

  21. This seems to be a discussion that is spoken about daily, and with any art. there is struggle. struggle to eat and pay rent, unfortunetly. We shouldnt have to live this way hustling to eat. But that is the way it is.

    I do not believe this is because of the business minded that we are in this position. YOU need to know what YOUR worth. You need to have the drive, motavation and push to make it happen for yourself. We need to stop blaming the people who understand money and how to make it. In stead team with them and let them help and guide you. Meaning Agencies and Management. You may end you going through a couple, as people will take you for everything your worth. but stand strong dont do contracts do trails, and why not trust people who can actually make informed decisions on your art.

    For this to happen we do need to work. We need to study, and try things that we are not necessarily good as.

    As artist, we call ourselves openminded let’s prove it!!!! and pull together instead of hating on eachother for having successes


  22. You really want to make money at this? study other industries that have evolved and learned how to make it work. ie. journalism, photography

    stop making excuses for the fact that you have no business sense and learn some. It will take time and be hard. But wasnt it a slow hard process for you to learn how to paint as well…. you know nothing comes easy. so work, work harder then you ever have. Use your brain as well as your vision. Come on seriously. You are intelligent people or you wouldnt be doing this. Or maybe your crazy enough to think its a great industry. You arent going to evolve until you charge what your worth… stop blaming the industry. you LET them do this to you!

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